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First or Second Edit

I thought Aviendha was Rand's First Lover, Min his second, and Elayne his third. Min's page supports this view but the last edit to Aviendha states she was second. Can we get a book/chapter reference on Min going first? (and it wasn't when he got the never healing wound in his side) Rand thinks he has to marry Aviendha, this attitude doesn't make sense if she isn't his first, and Elayne later says something to the effect of "Min and Avienda have both had something from you I want, and I want it now" so Elayne didn't go first either... --Melriken 23:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Rand and Aviendha first make love in TFoH Ch. 31 Rand and Min first make love in ACoS Ch 19. Thus, Aviendha was first. Fatidiot1234 04:35, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Sort of on the subject, we had a wise, guy from the University of Rochester, NY stop by earlier this month. Yes, I was just bored enough to look that up. --Gherald 04:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not clear why you removed the encyclopedia link. Your comment doesn't seem to make any sense, but so be it. Fatidiot1234 05:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
As can be seen from my revision, which changes the date on your signature, what happened is you added the link (revising your comment) while I was in the process of posting mine, which was for amusement purposes only : ) --Gherald 20:06, 28 February 2008 (UTC)Fatidiot1234 20:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

You haven't explained why you deleted Fatidiot1234 20:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Uhm. What I said is: "you added the link (revising your comment) while I was in the process of posting mine"
Put another way, when I clicked edit there was no link. I did not notice you revised your comment in the interim. --Gherald 06:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Aviendha's Sept Edit

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but the main article says that Aviendha is of the Nine Valleys Sept of the Taraad Aiel. In the paper back book, the Dragon Reborn, page 431, where she is introduced, she says she is of the Bitter Water Sept. That I know of anyway, Aiel don't change their Sept. Why the mix up? -- Nupist.

Early printings of The Dragon Reborn identify her as belonging to the Bitter Water Sept. Later books and re-prints of that book correct it to Nine Valleys. I can't seem to find any reason as to the change, other than the incorrect sept was somehow inadvertently printed in early editions of The Dragon Reborn. ---- Willie - HtS 14:46, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Aviendha's passing through the columnsEdit

I don't think there's any chance what Aviendha saw when she passed through the columns could happen. I have calculated a bit, and this is my worst case scenario:

The Seanchan have 500 000 soldiers and 7500 damane.

And their enemy's have 200 000 borderlanders and 150 000 Aiel, each worth one Seanchan soldier. Then there are 150 000 soldiers in the Dragons Empire (tear, Illian, Arad Doman) and another 150 000 under Elayne (Andor, Cairhien, Two Rivers, Gheldean). Makes 450 000 thousand against those 150 000 Seanchan left. But the Andoran will also have, say, 200 Dragons. If one of the Great Captains (Davram Bashere, Agelmar Jagad, Rodel Ituralde, Gareth Bryne and Mat) survives, I'm sure he will chose to gather all those armies on a place the Dragons can fire when the Seanchan are still a mile away. Twohundred of them, killing fifty each shot, makes 10 000 kills in each minuit. If the Seanchan reach them in ten minuits (witch will be around their top speed) they will have lost 100 000 soldiers. So that's make 400 000 against 350 000 sodiers of the same strength, but the second army will also have 450 000 other soldiers.

Now the channlers. I already said there would be 7500 damane. Around that time, there will be maybe 1500 Asha'man, 2000 Aes Sedai, 1500 Wise One's, 1500 of the Kin and 1000 Seafolk channlers. Makes 7500 too. But maybe there are a lot more Wise Ones, and men are stronger than women, while the Seanchan do not have an a'dam for men. And the weaves will be equal, because of the escaped damane (Egwene, Teslyn and Edesina) who can learn all those weaves to the others. And the Asha'man have the weaves Rand used when they were attacked in Tear (when Lews Therin had control of saidin).

Those reasons are why I'm sure it will not happen. Asha'man Leyrann Gaidin 13:24, May 23, 2011 (UTC)

  • Are these numbers based on the pre Last Battle armies, or post? Based on how I read the visions, the Seanchan don't participate in the last battle. My bet is that this future can happen because of a few factors like, the Seanchan have the intrest of 1 nation of people, whereas the goodguys are only banded together because of the Last Battle, many good guys will die, and we don't know what lasting effects the battle will have on the world. What if the land of Randland doesn't become fruitful for years? Seanchan might be the only source of good food. What if Rand bends knee to the Crystal Throne? How many people will convert to Seanchan when their savior joins them? There are still a lot of factors both millitant and non millitant, that could cause such a future. Alliances tend to fall apart when the war at hand is over. Hekiryuu 16:40, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe your right. But I don't know if I want to think about that possibility. Asha'man Leyrann Gaidin 16:44, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

Okay. I just thought of something that would make a very large diffrence - Circles. The Seanchan do not use them because of the a'dam, and their enemy's can make them up to 72 large. Then no one will be captured, but one of those circles can kill hundreds of damane. This will mean there are soon no damane left, and then the circles attack the Seanchan army - with will have no chance then. O, and of course may a circle not be lead by an Aes Sedai, because they are bound to oaths. But if the Power of an Aes Sedai is used by, for example, an Asha'man, she does not use the Power as a weapon. The Asha'man does. Asha'man Leyrann Gaidin 17:05, May 27, 2011 (UTC)

I think her vision is not true, or at least...not yet, as this is not a prophecy or anything, maybe the columns didn't show her the future, maybe only her darkest fears and concerns...anyway, i truly hope that theAiel will not die out as she seemed to see, it will be a great loss for the world

I also hope so. Asha'man Leyrann Gaidin 09:24, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

And any unlikliness does not erase it from being a possible future. Gaidar Birgitte 15:08, June 25, 2011 (UTC) 05:21, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't think that the fortellings from the rings in rhuidean are set in stone. I think they show a possible future. Why I think that, I cannot say, other than it doesn't feel right any other way, though I suppose that could be down to wishful thinking.

Secondly, as for the likely outcome of war - you can't boil everything down to numbers. There are a 1001 other factors that decide the outcome of warfare, ranging form morale, to terrain, to tactics, to politics. It's a grave error to presume that numbers and male channelers will decide the outcome, and equally erroneous to assume that the five great captains are unbeatable, or that there are no equivalents on the seanchan side. For a start, if Seanchan is reconquered by the Empire and brought back under heel, they could receive copious reinforcements in terms of troops, damane and quality tacticians.

Thirdly, after re-reading the appropriate sections there are various things to take note of.

"The real turning point in the war had been the entry of the other nations. After that, the Seanchan had been able to seize wetlander peoples and cull more channelers from their ranks." Ch. 49 pg 726. - This implies that when the other nations of Randland eventually did join the war, it only served to further the Seanchan's advance, through the increase in number of marath'damane captured and collared.

"Seanchan channelers were brutal in their effectiveness. Though the Wise Ones and Dragon Blooded used the One Power in battle, it was not enough. Those cursed a'dam! Each channeler the Aiel lost to capture was eventually turned against them." Ch. 49 pg 726 - This backs up the previous quote; whilst the Aiel only reduced the number of Seanchan thorugh victory, the Seanchan simultaneously reduced the number of enemies whilst also increasing their pool of channelers.

"Even before he had become chief, he had realized that this war could not be won by the Aiel alone. They needed these soft wetlanders." Ch. 49 pg 728, & "If Andor entered the war, the other nations would as well, particularly those in the Pact of the Griffin and those in the Court of the Sun." Ch. 49 pg 730, - these two quotes along with the stated duration of the war at the time of the quotes being 40 years, shows that the cohesion that you assume between the Aiel and the nations of Randland against the Seanchan is nowhere near what you think. The politics between the nations and the Aiel, particularly with the Dragon's Peace, means that the nations of Randland and fractured, and thus less co-ordinated. The Seanchan have also had 40 years in which to develop their tactics, the battle-prowess of their damane, and to further increase their supply of damane through capture.

""This peace of the Dragon's will not last long, anyway," Alalved said. "Skirmishes between the nations are common, though none speak of them. The Car'a'carn required promises of the monarchs, but there is no enforcement. Many wetlanders cannot be held at their word, and I worry that the Seanchan will devour them while they squabble." Ch. 49 pg 733, - further reinforcement of the fractitious relationships between the nations of Randland.

Another thing to note is that the fall of the Aiel is, seemingly, largely one of their own making. Starting with Rand and Aviendha's children, and moving right through to Ladalin, their descendant, the Aiel move further and further away from their original ways. Padra and her siblings (and thus the Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones they influence) are arrogant and aggressive, believeing there is honour in simply killing the Seanchan, and that war brings honour regardless of the reasonings. Oncala is full of hate; hate of the Seanchan, hate of the Wetlanders, and a savage, twisted view of jie'toh. The Aiel manipulate Andor into the war and believe it honorable, purely because they believe the Seanchan would attack Andor at some point anyway.

"Being Ladalin had been worse than the others, for in her, Aviendha had seen hints of true Aiel ways, but corrupted, as if to make mockery. The woman had thought of war and associated it with honor, but hadn't understood what honor was. No gai'shain? Retreat? There had been no mention of toh. This was battle stripped completely of point or reason." Ch 49. pg 727, - reinforcing the point is Aviendha's own disgust at the twisting of Aiel ways.

No, reading the visions that Aviendha sees, I think it is perfectly reasonable and perfectly possible, and indeed likely that they will come true if their is nothing done to correct the problems. The Aiel, and further along the road the nations of Randland, would fall before the Seanchan empire and the Aiel would live lives of persecution until they died out completely. However, what is important is that Aviendha has seen these visions, and thus knows that something must be done to change the outcome, and is determined to do so. I cannot say what those changes need to be, though I would first look at the Dragon's Peace and the exclusion of the Aiel from it, and how he seems to be unsure what to do with the Aiel after the Last Battle. I would then look closely at the tutelage of Rand and Aviendha's children, to make sure they fully understand their responsibilities.

- Benjamin Thornton, Nov 10, 2012 05:21, November 10, 2011 (UTC)


Wise One StatusEdit

So, at the end of Towers of Midnight, is she a full Wise One yet? She did the column trip, but she hasn't come back yet to be welcomed by the others of her sept, as Melaine says, "a sister we have long forgotten" or something like that, I don't know the exact that part of the ritual, or is she fully a Wise One just by passing through the columns?

Article deletion on Wikipedia Edit

Normally I just bring articles to Wikia whole from Wikipedia, and either summarize them or attribute them to the WP editors responsible, either of which method satisfies copyright. That is not necessary here, so congrats on building a good article here.

The article of this name is nominated for deletion on Wikipedia. I would suggest against attempting to contribute to the deletion discussion, as only policy-based arguments are considered, and WP policies are numerous, complex, and precise. I recommend concentrating on finding content useful to this article, that can be added here, and/or attempting to improve the article there. VvAnarchangelvV 16:10, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

She changed the columns? Edit

Are you certain that Aviendha altered the columns in Rhuidean? Didn't she enter them a 2nd time which was normally prohibited? Maybe it's prohibited because it shows a future instead of the past?

TiCaudata (talk) 17:40, September 21, 2012 (UTC)17:37, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

Edits Needed Edit

Editing needed:

Some of the wording here is very akward. There are sections that are hard to read. There are way too many parenthetical clarifications. They should be worked into actual full sentences to keep the flow of the article. In the section "Return to Rhuidean" The first line doesn't make a lot of sense. It looks like a couple of major words needed to complete the thought were left out. The last couple of sections do not match the writing style of the prevvious sections. The are rather slim, and could use some beefing up.

(Myrab51 (talk) 01:17, December 10, 2012 (UTC))

  • So do it yourself? Acarna (talk) 17:03, December 18, 2013 (UTC)Acarna

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