Talk:Egwene al'Vere

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[edit] categorization

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your intent, but why did you demote Egwene back to Accepted? Beonin's whole justification for them being able to raise her is that becoming Amyrlin makes her Aes Sedai...

“The Amyrlin Seat, she is Aes Sedai— the law is quite clear; several places it is stated, 'the Amyrlin Seat as Aes Sedai'— but nowhere is it said that it is necessary to be Aes Sedai to become Amyrlin.”
   — Beonin Sedai, arguing before the Salidar Hall

You can't mean to list all Aes Sedai as Category:Accepted and Category:Novices as well, just because they went through the steps...so I'm just wondering what your line of thought was here. nae'blis _(talk) 22:54, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC)

No, I was going by status changes that happen after we first meet a character... see Nynaeve for a previous example. --Gherald

Are we still doing this? Does this not completly mess up the organization of having different categories for everything, because people will be listed under all of them? Whats the deal on this one? - Elliot N 16:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how it messes up organization; people will only be listed under categories they've been members of at some point in the main books. Seems fine to me... --Gherald 19:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

So then somone goes and looks to see every Accepted in the tower at the time. And instead gets every Aes Sedai in existance?

No, you misunderstand. If the person was Aes Sedai at the time of TEOTW 1, they will not be listed under Category:Accepted. If the person was an Accepted at the time of TEOTW 1, they will not be listed under Category:Novices. I hope that's clear enough. Alternatively, we could use NS 1 as the anchor, I don't much care one way or the other. --Gherald 22:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

This completly screws up organisation. Why bother having seperate categories then, why not channelers of Tar Valon? Then we could specify on the seperate pages. So now we have to make a category for every lower rank in existance and put every character that was ever in them at them time? No sorry, this really makes no sense - Elliot N 21:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Woa I almost missed your response :). But why are we only doing it for a few characters then? Is this not be written from the point of view from the last book? Like are we not writing from a KoD perspective, and then aMoL once that comes out? Is that not how this kinda stuff works? And now they are not accepted they are Aes Sedai, so they get categorized as Aes Sedai? If we are able to specify on the actual category pages and divide it into former accepted or something then this would make sense. I can see where you are comming from on this now, but it still makes no sense to me. Categories are for organization, when you hit accepted and see Egwene there it is kinda silly cause if you have read into the series you'll scratch your head and think "These people are way off, she is Aes Sedai now!" I dunno, it seems obvious to us because we are the ones doing this, someone outside would think that we were just plain wrong. KNow what I mean? - Elliot N 15:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the criteria is selective at all ("only a few characters", you say?) so I'm not sure where you are going with that. Yes this should be written from the point of view of the latest book. The people who are now Aes Sedai will certainly be categorized as such. I think someone outside would understand "Categories: Two Rivers | Novices | Damane | Accepted | Dreamers | Amyrlins". If they don't we could consider seperate Former categories, but that's overkill IMO. I'm guessing the most we'll do is insert an HTML comment on the page right before the categorization, explaining the logic so ppl don't change it. --Gherald 21:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Why are we starting at tEotW? Why not New Spring. In which case, several more Aes Sedai have to be put in this category too. There are something like 10 or so Aes Sedai in NS who will now be in the Accepted category as they appeared as Accepted in the book series.

Do you have a reason to prefer starting at NS? As I said, I don't much care one way or the other.

And by saying it is being written from the perspective of the last book then this whole thing definaitly makes less sense.

Articles being written from the perspective of the latest book does not mean the articles will not cover events from previous books, nor that the circumstances of previous books will not be relevant to their categorization.

And when I say for a only a few characters I say why? Why not all of them then? Why are the Super Girls so important? So are we ignoring NS now? Or are we just doing this for the Super 3? Because I don't see how this will affect anyone but the Super Girls if we ignore NS. - Elliot N 15:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing about this that is specific to the super 3 or even to Aes Sedai. The principle applies to any character whose circumstance changes. --Gherald 22:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

But why??? I can only keep asking this. If this is written from the perspective of KoD they are categorized as Aes Sedai, cause thats what they ARE.

Why is what they WERE not relevant?

I personally would not even have Siuan under Amyrlins as she is no longer Amyrlin and is just Aes Sedai. I agree on the whole overkill thing for seperate former category, but then there has to be a way to specify on the Category page itself, it it just looks silly and incorrect. You go to the Accepted page and see Egwene and then go to Aes Sedai and see her again.

If you take a closer look at our categorization scheme, you will see that Accepted is actually a subcategory of Aes Sedai. There's a good reason for that, too :)

Unless it can say after her name (Raised to the Blue Ajah)then I think it is useless.

Put that in the article

Also it is not personal preferance when the series starts, if we are by the order in the series then it starts at NS. I Dunno, if this is written within the WoT world then it would have to start at NS. - Elliot N 17:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Not so much personal preference as a matter of practicality. NS is a side plot novel, and takes place what, 20 years earlier? With far fewer main characters? If you think the same exact principles we apply to the main books should be applicable to prequels, I don't know what to say other than I think you are very wrong. --Gherald 21:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

On the topic of NS I think that it really sets up the story of Wot alot, it explains about Moiraine, Siuan and Lan. It explains further about how all of this was able to happen in the way that it dide. It was written as a side plot and then extended to be a prequel. I think we just have to agree to disagree (I hate that expression :-) ) on the categorization thing, my opinion is known thats all I can do. But I dunno, I think this NS thing needs further discussion. And on the whole thing about put the info in the article I meant so people don't think we are incorrect when we list them in what looks like the wrong place. Plus it just looks better, in my opinion at least. I understand having an explaination, but really how many people do you think would read it? When you hit a category you usually know what you are looking for already or have a rough idea, so stuff at the top is usally not read very much. I don't know, do what you gotta do - Elliot N 16:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I do think it's important for anyone who changes rank within the books, and that includes NS. If you'd expect to know information about anyone within the context of them being an Accepted/Novice (like Siuan and Moiraine getting in trouble before their raising), you should be able to find them during the categorization scheme.

Alternatively we could have "Category:Former Amyrlins" for people like Tetsuan and Siuan, but that may be overkill. nae'blis _(talk) 15:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)